Episode S4E7: Simple Relational Disciple Making

In this episode, Hal interviews Jerry Wiles on the topic of remarkable book just
published entitled, Simple Relational Disciple Making: Ancient Ways for Modern Times. It is a fascinating book that relates to sharing the Gospel and disciple-making, and how that mission should be part of our lives more and more as we age. This conversation has relevance to everything we do, and it related especially to sharing the stories of God’s work as we invest our lives into generations following us. Listen to the podcast and then order the book.

Order it at Simple, Relational Disciple Making | Jerry Wiles, and you can read more of Jerry’s story there.

This article is also very helpful in knowing Jerry and his mission.” https://lausanne.org/global-analysis/orality-in-the-academy-and-beyond 

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Music.

Dr Hal Habecker: 0:04

Welcome to the finish and well podcast where we encourage seasoned believers to find meaningful ways to impact their world for the kingdom of God, whether you're 65 and up or not quite there. Yet, our mission is to prepare and encourage every person to finish well. Our prayer is that this podcast will encourage and strengthen you to glorify Christ as we intentionally engage our aging fears. Good morning. Finishing Well, ministry Podcast Network, I'm glad you've joined us. This morning. You're joining in on a conversation with a good friend. We've had him on our podcast before. And Jerry Wiles from Houston, Texas, he has, God has used him in a great way, in a lot of different ways. We talked about brain health the last time. And this morning, we want to talk about a subject out of a book he has recently been republished, called simple relational disciple making ancient ways for modern times. So welcome Jerry, and before I get into this, just glad to have you back, and I appreciate your ministry and what God's doing in your life. Thank you. My pleasure. The subject we're talking about this morning is really what I would call the transmission of the gospel. You know, in Matthew 28 Jesus said, as you go, as you live, wherever you go, wherever you are, make disciples. So, I mean, it's the fundamental obligation and privilege of Christians that is to share the good news of Christ, and it's through, I want to say storytelling mean telling your story. I mean the first century disciples, when the Thessalonians church spread the Gospel all over the world, they didn't have a manual on how to make disciples. They didn't have a manual on anything. What they did was tell their stories. Is that not fair? Jerry,

Unknown: 2:21

that's exactly what they did. Now I'm drawn to your book simple relational disciple making ancient ways for modern times. What do you mean by that phrase, ancient ways for modern times and making disciples? Well, I would say it has to do with rediscovering the most effective ways that people have learned and communicated from the beginning of time. So the ancient ways really focuses on really the life and the spirit and the teachings of Jesus, and getting back to the most essential things, of what people need to know, how much they need to know, and what's the best delivery system, the best way of communicating that message. So I like to always start these conversations by defining the terms. So when we think about what is a disciple? How does a person become a disciple? What do disciples do? How can they be reproducing disciples? And so when we define the terms really more in the biblical context, rather than a modern, Western, post reformation way of thinking, then we get back to a way that is simple. It's Biblical, it's understandable, and it's reproducible. So the reproducibility part is huge in terms of multiplying the impact for the kingdom. So that's the short answer well, and I think what you're on to, it's not a technical term in terms of, I mean, there are a lot of books out there on discipleship, but we're not talking about discipleship as a technical term. You're talking about it as something fluid that comes right out of your heart and how you transmit it to other people. Is that fair? That's fair. And when a friend of mine says, if it doesn't come out of your heart, it just doesn't come out. Wow. So when we think about out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. So when we have an understanding and an experiential knowledge of a living relationship with the living Christ, Christ in us is the hope of glory. Colossians, 127, and Galatians. 220 these are two foundational verses that have been transformational in my in my journey. It's not I, but Christ living in us. So when we have that recognition and awareness of the conscious presence of Christ living in us by the Holy Spirit, and that the same Holy Spirit that produced the life of God. God in the Son of God reproduces that life through us as His children, as his followers, as members of the Body of Christ. So there's some basic truths that are very clear in Scripture, but often not as clearly experienced in the contemporary church. As a pastor 50 years plus, like you. I find this so refreshing, because we want to say, read this book, and here I am telling people to read your book. But your book is not what people normally think about when, when it comes to discipleship, your book is a fundamental book on communication, and what really comes out of your heart, is it not that's true, that's true. And I think that you know in my journey over these past 50 plus years that I've been doing this, you know? And of course, we've talked about this before, the Asbury revival, the Jesus movement, Jesus revolution in the early 70s put many of us on a a new journey, and many of us have stayed on that journey since then. But it's a continuing learning journey, and continuing to see how God works, and the more we see it how it works. I've seen it happen over and over again, when people are activated to share their faith, and they see that, that it's not a gift, it's the gospel. That's the power of God and salvation and the word of God, the living word, of course, the is the written word that points us to the living word, but the living word the Lord Jesus, he's the same yesterday, today and forever. So when we have that awareness that makes a huge difference in the way we live and the way we share our life with others. I love it. Let me delve into your background a little bit. This all comes out of your journey over these past 50 years. And there's a key word that jumps out to me in this book and listening to you, it's called orality. Describe the concept, how did it happen in your own life, in your own work, in Africa, or wherever you've gone, and just explain it to us. Your background on this story back in the early ages, I was introduced to orality through Herbert clem's book, oral communications, scriptures, insights, insights into African oral art. So I began to get connected with a few people at that time that were talking about orality, oral cultures, oral traditions. And of course, since then, it's really grown into a movement and came out of Amsterdam, 2000 table, 71 and the Lausanne Movement and the creation of initially, it was the oral Bible Task Force which became the international orality network. So Doctor Avery Willis, who was the head of all foreign missionaries with the Southern Baptist International Mission Board. So he took the leadership of that. I got acquainted with him. I've known him for many years. And so as it began to emerge from those days, from around 2000 to 2004 and then, and then the subsequent years, then there was a book published called making disciples of oral learners, which was out of research and foundational to this whole movement. So I actually was doing some of this before I before it became a movement, and so recognizing that most of the people of the world do not have, well, I'd say most people don't have access to the scriptures or can read them with comprehension. So the research shows us that the majority of the world are all learners by necessity or by preference. Just because they have the Bible in the language doesn't mean that that's the best way for them to to come to a relationship with Jesus. Say that again, so I love that. Just because they have a Bible doesn't mean that that's the best way for them to learn and come to a relationship with the Lord. So when we think about mission strategies the past, it would be to go to unreached people groups or oral cultures, reduce the language into writing, translate the Bible, or portions of it into into their language, teach them how to read, then introduce them to Jesus? Well, we know now we can introduce them Jesus, whether they ever have the word in their language, or whether they ever learn to read that great. So our best model, of course, is the Lord Jesus. And 2000 years ago, plus, when he was here, only about three to 12% of the people at that time would have had access to the scripture, and could have read them with comprehension. So when we ask the important question, How did Jesus communicate? How did he give instruction? How did he make disciples? He used parables, he asked questions. He created community and relationships in ways that was reproduced for 1500 years until Gutenberg. And then the church became more dependent on written communication and neglected what had been around from the beginning. So this rediscovery of telling stories, asking questions, using parables, using poetry, Proverbs, and of course, different cultural traditions in different parts of the world, song and dance and drama. How do people normally learn, communicate and transmit information? So when we ask those important questions, then I think we can get to some really good answers that are very impactful. There's a number of ways I could go with this, but I recall scripture in Deuteronomy six where this is the way the home operated. You know, if you're going to train your children, you tell stories. You're with them all day, from the sun up to sun down, when you walk in the way, when you lie down, when you sleep, when you get up. I mean, it's a 24/7, story telling process of what's important to you and how you love God with all your heart, soul and mind, and communicate that from generation to generation, and those little kids grow up into adult kids. And I suppose I'm just thinking about this out loud now, that's the way it should continue, multi generationally throughout the community. Is that fair? Exactly? And we're blessed now, of course, to have the written record and the scripture, and they've been around for a long time, but it's normally been the minority of people that could read and share the message with the masses. So in Revelation, one it says, Blessed is the one who reads and those who hear. So there was one reading and there was many hearing. So that's the way. And it happened for many years that average people didn't have access to the scriptures to read them on their own, so the few who had it could share it with others, and it was more reproducible, and people told their stories. And this is the way the gospel spread throughout the whole populated world on the first century before we had radio and television in the printing press. So the ancient ways, subtitle of my book, really is focused on that, and then really focused on the life and the spirit and the teachings of Jesus. And can we make disciples today the way he made disciples? Then, well, my answer is yes, because the same Holy Spirit is at work in the world today, and he's prepared to work in and through each of us who are available to him and trust and obey Him. Now I want to take a different tack here. Bridge off something you already talked about in this orality concept. You do orality training seminars. Do you not? And what do you do in these and how does it relate to us as Christians, sharing the story? Well, several years ago, we created what we call an introduction to contextual Bible storying. It's an orality training workshop. So we wanted to have a sample. We wanted to have a way to demonstrate what this is like. So there's several different models, several different ways of orality training, orality institutes and and oral Bible schools and storytelling. So in this introductory training, we have five stories from the gospel, and we we tell stories, we ask questions, we engage in community, in participatory learning, and we say the way we introduce this, we say, with five stories from the Gospels, with the appropriate Pre and Post story discussion and dialog. We can give a community or tribal group a simple narrative theology of the most important things they need to know to begin a relationship with Jesus and to become reproducing followers of Jesus, requiring no printed material, no technology. So we want to train people with just what's in their heads and hearts that can be reproduced in the heads and hearts of others. So this will happen anywhere in the world, under trees in West Africa or in the most remote parts of China, India, or wherever in the world. You can tell the stories, and they can process a set of stories. So we focus on learn a little, practice a lot, implement immediately, tell the stories often. So the big question is, how much, what do they need to know? So we've had some lots of discussions over the years of those concepts and what's, what are the most essential truths from the scriptures that can be communicated orally, that would bring people into a relationship with Jesus and then be able to tell their story, and that the gospel is reproduced and multiplied. And this is really I mean when we talk about making disciples. So many of us think about down the road maturity, but we're talking about. The fundamental issue the transmission of the gospel, how to share Jesus with others through the stories that he told in the way he lived? Is that not fair? That's fair and just getting people on the journey, and then they end this conversation about defining the terms, when, when does the person become a disciple? What do disciples do? And how much do they need to know, and then how do they share that with others? How do they become reproducing followers of Jesus? So asking the right questions people normally come to the right answers if they have a biblical framework to process it. You know, it seems to me, we make life too complex when it comes to sharing the gospel. Sometimes what you're hitting on something I think is very fundamental to the heart of the church and the world. I mean, how do we spread the gospel? And I want to encourage all of our listeners to get your book simple, relational disciple making ancient ways from modern times. It can happen in an elevator. Your book is filled with stories where you only have a few minutes of conversation, and ultimately, you're introducing people to the life changing life of the Lord Jesus Christ. It's incredible. Well, it is amazing. I'm still excited about it, and I've been blessed to learn from so many different people over the years, and there, you know, it's not about a formula or a program or a set of disciplines. All those things are important. Can be used of God. But when we when we have an awareness of the presence of Christ, the power of His Word, and as we speak out, as we share with others, we'll see how God has prepared many people's hearts now I think prayer, of course, and a recognition of the work of the Holy Spirit. It's the supernatural work of God. I mean, the spiritual new birth is a supernatural work of God. Is not something we persuade people to believe and change their lives. It's the it's the Holy Spirit that touches people's hearts and changes their lives as we share the message. We all have the privilege of being a messenger, a good news reporter. You know, while this is technical information we're talking about, and you can observe it and learn from it, you know you're exactly correct, it's the life transforming power of the Spirit leading us, helping us to value people and what they need, and how to go about sharing it exactly. And I think just looking for ways to connect with people, I mean prayer and and thinking about having our hearts prepared, being sensitive to the people we're around, and just observing and asking questions can often open up a conversation. I have many of those, of course, in the book, and many more could be put in another book. I probably write another book. But the thing is, the conscious presence of Christ living in us, and the present work of the Holy Spirit. I think those two things, Galatians, 220, Colossians. 127, if we can get our minds and hearts around those, the concepts in those verses, and then the many other verses that would support this, of course, but what I've seen happen is is once people see how it works, it's better caught than taught, as the saying goes. And I've had observed over the years how people have an encounter and then later on to find out what happened and how the Lord used them. Now it doesn't happen with everyone. And you know, the seed tests the soil, but as we're faithful and consistent to sow the seed of the Word of God into people's hearts, the Holy Spirit will use it. And of course, we have an understanding about the parable of the sower and the soil, the different conditions of the soil. So what we're looking for is fertile soil, good soil, but But even the hard hearts, the shallow hearts, or the crowded hearts, from from that parable that Jesus gave us, we recognize that the word of God can break through the most difficult situations, the hardest hearts, and that we just, you know, we just have that privilege of delivering the message. This is all just stimulating for me. Jerry, I want to turn the conversation now, in a sense, I want a part two. You've explained everything to us, and I love it. Our ministry is focused on older people living well, capturing the years that God has allotted for us in the latter half of our life, or the last lap, or the third quarter, fourth quarter, et cetera, et cetera. So it seems to me, this is something that ought to be vitally, a part of living for Christ in our latter years. Now, you mentioned in your book the verse out of Proverbs, 1320, I think it is. You know, if you're if you hang out with wise people, you'll learn. To be wise. Now God has given us these years to live. One of the things we have is all the stories of what God has done for us, in us, and what he's continuing to do in our lives in these critically important years. And how do you share that with other people? So would you talk to me? Talk to us about the value of these latter years and understanding orality and telling the story? You know, it's like Psalm. I think it was 7118 you know, tell the stories to the next generation for those who are to come. It's all throughout the Bible, generational living and the importance of storytelling for us as growing, maturing believers to the generation following us into generations yet to come. How does this relate to all this? What Does it spark in your mind? Well, this is a very important topic, and I'm speaking to people more and more about finishing well ministries and maximizing our impact for the kingdom in these years with my my peers. I mean, these are friends in their 60s, 70s, and so thinking about what we can do now, part of this is the understanding, and I've gotten into holistic living and longevity studies and looking at the lives of people who have been fruitful in ministry and their various other professional endeavors into their 70s, 80s, 90s and beyond. There's a few that's over 100 that are still speaking, lecturing and active in ministry, and we can always be active in ministry one way or another. And I quote you when I say, you ain't done until you're dead, and as long as you have a pulse, you have a purpose. So I quote that occasionally, but also, of course, my journey with my wife getting Alzheimer's disease, and then my understanding experientially what people go through and dealing with memory loss, memory care, the whole memory care industry, but memory enhancement, how can we lifestyle changes that will help us have a healthier brain and better memory mental fitness, which is also physical fitness. So the holistic idea of Holistic Health, holistic living, I like to use the term holistic disciple making, because the most important thing is to introduce people to Jesus their spiritual life and their eternal destiny. All the rest of it's just temporary. It's important treatment and resources to help people in their senior years. I'm talking to a friend just recently about the financial area. He's a financial professional, and I'm introducing him to finishing well ministries and how he might fit into this whole movement of of motivating and activating people in their senior years to see the benefit a better, healthier life, but spiritually, psychologically, mentally, emotionally, financially, every, every aspect of our lives. So we need to think about holistic concepts that relate to these issues, especially when we are we're at this stage of life, it really is important. And you know, with your permission, I'm going to lean on you in the future to help finish the well ministries develop a number of these, but a couple illustrations come to my mind. You shared with me you were doing an a reality seminar, and an 84 year old man was present. Tell us that story and what his thoughts were and how we can anticipate maybe the same thing happened in our own lives. Well, this particular man went through one of our trainings 84 years old. He said he had been teaching Sunday school for 60 years, and after he went through the training, he said, I would have given anything if someone had taught me this 70 years ago. Wow. And he, for the first time, learned stories well enough to tell them. So that's what we do, is we, you know? And one of the stories, of course, is the story of Nicodemus, and he had determined that after he went through the training, he was going to look for an opportunity to tell the story. So he went. He had a doctor's appointment. He was in a waiting room, and there was a lady that reading a magazine. He greeted her and had some conversation. Then he said, I just learned a story. I would like to tell you a story. And can I tell you a story? She said, sure. He said, What was the story about a man by the name of Nicodemus? It's about being born again. And she said, Wait a minute, I need to be born again. So he paused his storytelling and shared the gospel and invited her to pray with him, and he he prayed, prayed with him, and she received Christ. He later said, I didn't even get to tell the story, so I use that one as many, as well as other other stories. The fact that God is the Holy Spirit is a. Unlimited and creative in the ways that he can touch people's hearts and change their lives as we're available to him. It's so instructional, so helpful, so encouraging. You have another story. Was it about your grandson, and is his name? Elliot? Yeah. Elliot. Tell us about that their family would spend some time. My son was with living water in national he was in in East Africa during this season, and I was there to do orality training in Kenya. And his family was there in Elliot, five years old at the time, just observed the story he was around at the time, and his his mom worked with him a little bit to learn some of the stories. A few months later, back in the States, I was doing an orality training workshop for a several churches that were involved up on the north side of Houston. There's about 450 people there, so Jonathan and Meredith and their family were there. Elliot at that time, still five years old, after I introduced the day that morning, and then I told the first story, and then I explained, repetition is the mother of all learning. So listen to the story again as one of our training team retells the story. So I invited Elliot to come up. He took the microphone and told the story of Jesus calming the storm perfectly. Wow. That was a good way to start the day. But we have, we've experienced this too, especially in some of the Central American countries where we have children are there in the training, and sometimes six or eight or 10 year old children will learn the stories, and we give them opportunity to retell the stories before the group. And we explain about the value of the collective memory of the group. You don't have to know the whole story. You just tell as much as you can remember, and the group will help you so they see this process work out that gives them confidence. And also, we train teams to train as teams. So the more we do it together, it has greater impact, you know. And I think as we age, how can we learn, not only, to tell the stories of Scripture to new people, I mean, and continue sharing the gospel and bringing people into a relationship with Christ out of our aging years of experience. But how do we tell the stories of how God works in our own lives? You know, I remember I took a class on preaching years ago, and the instructor said, I want you to write five stories out of your sermon that you could use as illustrations, because people remember stories, and we're all thinking about the context. We want to teach people this, but he reminded us that you got to tell a story to get a hook into people's lives. So I mean, and telling the stories of your life ought to be the challenge and invitation of every aging person, and telling the story to their adult kids or grandkids, or great grandkids, and it's a way of life, as long as God gives you breath, and it's also a very healthy thing. There's some research that shows that storytelling is the best way to activate the brain, so there's something called reminiscence therapy, or story review. So wow, we like to talk about telling true stories from the Word of God, but also telling true stories of the work of God. So the more we tell these impact stories how God has worked in our lives, to our children and our grandchildren. So that is a very important part of our disciple making journey. And I think that's I mean in an idea and a dream, that that's what we would wish for, that every aging person, man, woman, whatever, grandparent, single, married, you know, alone in life or wherever you're at, I mean, that's that's our mission, is it not? And to make sure the generational stories are passed on. I think of it was either, I think it was in the book of Ezra, where they had a teaching of the law all day long, and every the text says, Everybody stood but throughout the congregation, which I envision would have been 1000s, there were other teachers who would translate the meaning of the story to people who were gathered there. So I imagine this story telling concept going all over. It's like Billy Graham preaching to a million people, but you have 10,000 storytellers translating what he is doing and the teaching of the gospel helping people to understand what it really means. Is that fair? Well, there's plenty of Scripture that would support that idea of make known the righteous acts of God. Yeah. So there are many different ways of making known the righteous acts of God. Telling our stories is probably the most effective way, the most universal way. So if you can engage in conversations now, I like to promote the idea of asking questions first asking a question like. Tell me, what are some defining moments in your life that's brought you to do what you're doing now, if you ask a question and you get people to open up, to tell their story, they'll often ask you, well, what about you? What's your story? So you start with their story, your story, and you bring God's story into that conversation. So it's a very effective way of, uh, engaging people to bringing, bringing the Lord into the conversation. Well, you've unlocked our minds and our hearts and, uh, at least in mind, 1000 different ways. And you know, it's almost I, I wish I could sit down with you and have a an orality trainee myself, but, the next best thing, I think, would be to ask people to find your book, simple, relational disciple making ancient ways for modern times. And people want to learn more about this process, they would get your book. How can we tell people where's the best place to get your book? The best place would be go to author Jerry wiles.com author Jerry wiles.com and that'll take them to the website with leadership books, which is the publisher and that has the information about that, a little bit more information about me so, but we're going to have these conversations sometime soon, maybe in person, well, but there may be an opportunity for some orality training. I mean, I've done so many different ways, different models of this, and you know, if a person wants to do a little personal research and study, there's lots of good information now that wasn't available even 10 years ago, wow. So let's bring this to a conclusion. Give me a personal what do you what are you wanting God to do in your life for the next 10 to 20 years? I mean, you're how old? I'm 78 soon be 79 I love it. Happy. Advanced birthday. Thank you. Well, my big vision is to revolutionize the way the Christian world thinks about communicating the gospel and making disciples. Now I don't mean I'm going to do that by myself, but I'm going to focus on the few to impact the many. So I'm looking for ways to multiply and reproduce, and there's many different tools now we have, we promote the idea of using the tools of the age and the tools of the ages, so orality, prayer, the work of the Holy Spirit. These are tools of the ages. But you think about the tools of the age now we have radio and TV. We have digital communications, we have social media, we have so many and, of course, we have the printed page. And so we promote the idea of communicating the truth, making disciples by all means. So I encourage people to read books. I encourage people to to listen to podcasts and interviews and radio and TV programs. I mean, you think about Adrian Rogers and Charles Stanley, both have gone on to be with the Lord and the Lord. Let me get to know both those men. Adrian Rogers was my pastor for a short time back in the 70s, I had some interaction with Charles Stanley. These are people that are fairly well known, but you know, their message is going on. Even though they're with the Lord, they had their messages in written form and and broadcast form. So love worth finding with Agent Rogers, that's still out there. And of course, Charles Stanley is still his messages is going on because so looking at ways, how can we preserve the message in the modern technology, with writing books or articles, recording that's going to go on, but also pouring into young people and looking for ways to mentor and model and and mobilize younger people. And of course, younger people can be at any age, really, yes, yes. So there's many different opportunities we have today with all the technology that's available. Well, that's our fourth essential, and the seven essentials we live to transform the next generation and tell them the stories that will live on through our lives and their lives, their kids, their grandkids. I think of I think it's in Hebrews 11, speaking of Abel. Even though he's dead, he still speaks. So that's what we're about. We want to keep speaking in our aging years and even long after we're gone. Yes, Jerry, thanks again. People can find your information at author Jerry wiles.com, leadership books.com. Is doing your stuff, and aren't you producing? Is there a video series in the works that you're making on all of this? Yes, I was just out in Nevada and recorded. And a video training series that complements the book, and we're in the process now finalizing a study guide, so fairly soon, the training series will be available with the study guide. But we have some other things in the making in the future, and I think you're aware that I'm getting married, yeah, and so the Lord is has brought an amazing, godly woman into my life, that we will be partnering together in ministry, as well as in our marriage. So that's a little bit about my future. And I think it's going to be, you know, we're better together. And I believe God is is doing some amazing things that we're going to be able to enter his activity, identify the activity of God, enjoying him, as Henry black, we talked about, I love it. Thanks, Sherry. I want to pray for you, that God will prosper you and our ministry and people that whose lives we impact. And I want to do that. I want to pray to pray the prayer of Moses and Aaron out of number six. I think we all know it well, Jerry, may the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord shine his face on you and be gracious to you in your new marriage and all that you do. And may the Lord lift up His countenance on you and give you a continuing peace and ambition to be about the work God has entrusted to you and to all of us here at finishing well ministries in the name of Christ, we pray amen. Amen. Thanks Jerry. May God bless you and have a great day. Thank you for listening to this finishing well podcast. We hope you were encouraged by today's conversation and living out your God given purpose. Subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts, or you can find us at finishing well ministries. Dot, O, R, G, forward, slash podcast, if you have a question, a comment or a suggestion or an idea, send a note to me. How@finishingwellministries.org check out our website and our vision to change the way we think about our aging season of life. Go to finishing well ministries.org, and visit our website. We'll see you next time, and may the Lord bless and encourage you.