Episode S4E14: Guest: Ken Wilgus. “Being a Parent of Adult Children”

As we age, living with and influencing our adult children is a huge theme in life. In this podcast, listen to Hal as he interviews well-known psychologist, Dr. Ken Wilgus about life with adult children. Ken has written an exceptional book entitled, Feeding the Mouth That Bites You, and while Ken’s book focuses on the adolescent years, the principles he shares are timeless and critically important in the years we share with our adult children.

Dr. Hal Habecker and Ken Wilgus discuss the challenges of parenting adult children and the concept of planned emancipation. Ken emphasizes the cultural shift in how children transition to adulthood, noting the lack of a universally agreed-upon method. He highlights the importance of signaling to children that they are seen as adults and respecting their choices. They also touch on the impact of cultural changes, such as expressive individualism, on identity and the isolation it creates. Dr. Habecker stresses the need for Christians to live strong adult lives and encourage their children spiritually, using personal stories and experiences rather than lectures.

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Dr. Wilgus has been a practicing psychologist for over thirty years. He received a Ph.D. from the University of Texas at Austin, an M.A. from Trinity University and a B.A. from Baylor University. He completed his internship at the Michael Reese Medical Center in Chicago, Illinois. Dr. Wilgus served as Director of Child and Adolescent Services at the Minirth-Meier Clinic in Dallas, Texas. He maintains a private practice in Dallas Texas. Although he is no longer accepting new adolescent patients, Dr. Wilgus consults with parents as well as providing marriage and individual, adult therapy.

Transcript

Dr Hal Habecker: 0:03

Steve, today, on the finish and well

Ken Wilgus: 0:05

podcast, telling a story about you is is a very good way to advise and to instruct without being this teacher. Person own it. Talk about your own the things the Lord is doing in your life rather than starting a new lesson with your adult children who may not want to attend your semester of Bible study.

Dr Hal Habecker: 0:28

Welcome to the finish and well podcast where we encourage seasoned believers to find meaningful ways to impact their world for the kingdom of God, whether you're 65 and up or not quite there yet. Our mission is to prepare and encourage every person to finish well. Our prayer is that this podcast will encourage and strengthen you to glorify Christ as we intentionally engage our aging years. Welcome to the finishing well podcast where we engage issues of our aging years as we age, God is always new to us. That's a huge thing. He fills us with His Spirit for his purposes, as much in our 60s, 70s, 80s or wherever, as he ever did in our 20s, 30s, 40s, and that's our mission, to capture that eagerness to live for Jesus and do his work as we age as we become elders. So here we go. Today. I'm with Ken Wilgus. He has been a friend with me for how many years? Ken is a psychologist, and he specializes in adolescence, but he and his wife Sally, have been good friends of ours, and he's a very well recognized psychologist across United States. Fact, he has a book that's just been published by Focus on the Family feeding the mouth that bites you. We'll talk about that a little bit later, but welcome Ken to our podcast today. It's

Ken Wilgus: 2:05

great to be here. It's great to be interviewed by one of my big heroes. I'm among many men that I just can't believe I'm sitting with. Hal habecker is the coolest

Dr Hal Habecker: 2:16

Well, we have known each other for over four decades. You

Ken Wilgus: 2:20

did the premarital counseling on my 44 year marriage, golly, and we hung out at least two years before that. So anyway, we've

Dr Hal Habecker: 2:30

had a lot of experiences in life, and I'm a huge fan of Ken and his ministry and his wife and his kids, and we'll get into all of that, but I want to talk today about being a parent of adult children, actually, we're going to do two podcasts being a parent of adult children, and then in our next podcast, we're going to be looking at grandparenting. What's our role with our grandkids in all their stages. But to kick it off, Ken, you've written a really good book feeding the mouth that bites you, and you talk about the principle of emancipation, planned emancipation with your teenagers. So do me a favor, summarize what you mean by that, and then I want to bridge that into our adult kids as they grow.

Ken Wilgus: 3:16

So that's really the the summary of, you know, I spent years doing parent training. And there was a lot of question of, well, maybe you should write this in a book? Well, there's lots of books out there, and I kept thinking, What is unique that I would even need to add to that? Well, it really does come down to a central thing that I think everyone needs to know, is that we live in a culture that does not have an agreed upon means of translating our children into adults, and that's unique. That means, literally, 150 years ago, we didn't have these problems, like there were 13 to 18 year olds that were troublesome, but it wasn't a unique category. The term teenager wasn't invented until 1942 so what we now call normal teenage stuff isn't normal, and especially Christian parents need to be aware of that you can make a change in what we think of as a as a normal roadblock in your relationship with young adults, which really starts at 13 into adulthood, there are some common things that interfere with our ability to really relate to our young adult children. That you can do something about the fact that it's hidden and has been going on so long that everyone just thinks it's normal is usually the main problem is you get, get past that and recognize, wait a minute, I can change my young adult child's or my adult child's perspective and possibly help them to be more open to to the kind of real discipleship that you're. Are all about that you teach so well, but there's often a an initial roadblock.

Dr Hal Habecker: 5:06

It occurs to me, most of our listeners, those years of having teenagers are in the rearview mirror by a couple decades. That's right. So speak to that issue for us, who are in our 60s, 70s, and our teenagers are now adults. If we think back in those years, maybe we didn't do this planned emancipation. Well, just speak to us who are grown with those decades in the past. Maybe what we did well, what we didn't do well, and how that may hinder or help us understand our own adult kids and even our grandkids better, see,

Ken Wilgus: 5:42

that's a good question, because we're all older, but this, this problem has been going on even in our growing up. So the thing that I'm talking about, most of us as old folks, didn't have that either. So you can ask yourself the question, when did you know? When did your parents really signal to you that it is your life now, not that we approve or disapprove, but it is really no longer for us to approve. It's your life. You're a fully an adult, just like us. And if you think about it, and if you're in a group, a room full of people, you'll get a wide range of answers. Almost no one listening had a bar mitzvah, for example, which has always been among the ancient traditions of basically saying, yesterday you were a child, today you are an adult. We don't have that. And of course, I've actually worked with a number of Jewish families where even when they did have the bar mitzvah, they went home to the same thing that was there before, a meaningful way of all of us as a culture saying You are now an adult. And the reason that's important, even among older parents, whose children are grown up, is that that issue of do you say that I'm an adult, actually gets never answered. And I'm sure there are some listeners like in your 60s and your own mother, there's certain topics I don't want to hear her talk about, because it makes me feel like she's telling me what to do or telling me she doesn't approve. That tension can float your whole life, and you can do some things about that to signal to your young adult or even older adult kids that, hey, I want to be clear with you that we see you as adults. So planned emancipation, which is carried out through adolescence, is essentially a method of reinforcing the communication that, hey, in this house, you're an adult, starting at 13. I did this with my kids, and you will see us increasingly stepping out of your life as far as forced advice and direction. And it is more and more up to you, even if you don't do the choices we think you should do, we respect that that is your choice, and that's a message that, if you're not really clear about it, if you sit with young adults and teenagers for 35 years like I have, it is surprising how often that's still on their mind, that you're just trying to tell me what to do. You that kind of paranoia, that, because we haven't really defined, no, no, no, you're already in that point with me, we're adults, and all I'm trying to tell you is advice I am not forcing and all that kind of stuff. If you can do what you can to push that message forward that I may not agree with you on this, but I respect you because you're part of us, then that can really make a big difference and help your adults really want to hear from you as parents? Well,

Dr Hal Habecker: 8:43

let's chase that down a little bit further. I mean, we're working that. We're talking now about your adult kids, right? They're rare in families of their own, you know, etc. You got grandkids who are growing. I do if we haven't done that well, that planned emancipation, we continue to kind of nag our own adult kids into why are you doing this? That's why are you doing this? Speak to the danger of that, and then let's flip it around. And how do we really accentuate the value and freedom of that? Well,

Ken Wilgus: 9:16

and especially if it's a really important thing, like what you're letting my grandchildren do, or how you're handling your life morally. As Christians, we can often feel like because of the importance of this, I need to push and keep kind of I don't even care they don't want to talk to me. I've got to do what God wants me to do, all of which can feel kind of righteous, but ignores, again, this invisible block that you as adults, as the older adults that we are, you probably didn't get it either, which is the message that precedes anything else, which is saying, hey, I want you to know that I'm very concerned about this thing, and I hope we can talk about this, but I hope you also know that I recognize you have to make. Decisions, for example, with grandkids. We'll talk about that more than another next time. You know how you handle your children, we recognize as your parents, that's your choice. So what we're telling you isn't from on high position, and you don't know anything. It is adult to adult, perhaps Christian to Christian, but it is advice and actually equalize. I'm doing this with my hands, like, equalizing. I watch you. Yeah, it's like, but, but it's like, showing that I'm not coming in from above. I'm just talking to you. Adult to adult is a huge can be, you can't guarantee it. It can be a huge ear opener, if you will, to really being able to hear that I'm talking to a parent that is compassionate, who is perhaps heartbroken, but who is not all knowing and still telling me what to do, which, again, seems like that's old news that carries on from 14 to 50 or more, you know, and their listeners, I think, now in their 60s or older, who can either remember when their parents were still living or they still are, and they feel that that condemnation, because we never clarified. Oh, wait, you're past Bar Mitzvah. You now are a son of the covenant. You're not obedient to me directly. Those are things we don't do anymore, and we are in a unique culture that was never true throughout the planet. Throughout history, there was always a cultural acceptance that that's when you're an adult. This is when you're a child. And we're the strange setup of cultures that in the West that have forgotten this. Now

Dr Hal Habecker: 11:44

let me tell you a little sidebar trip here. I know you're passionate. We've talked about this. Is this maybe why young adults delay adulthood, delay marriage, delay child bearing? In fact, you know, we're at a zero growth as a population right now because we don't see adulthood becoming married, having a family. You know, that's the normal thing that adults do. No, that's That's exactly

Ken Wilgus: 12:14

right as a matter of fact. You know, the first edition of my book was written over 10 years ago, and it's been really heartbreaking for me to see. Well, number one, there has been a real interest in planned emancipation and parents really letting their kids grow up, while at the same time, the culture has gone backward. If there is anything worse than a teenager that is rebellious and pushes back on their being treated patronizingly. If there's anything worse than that, it's a teenager that doesn't push and actually kind of unconsciously agrees with you that you're right. I'm really not ready. I'm gonna stay in my bedroom in my basement, playing video games, not really thinking about dating, just kind of basically a eternal child that's increasing, just like you're saying more and more becoming the norm, and Christian parents particularly, really have to push back on that, not just in the area of speaking truth about what God values for us, but also speaking the truth about who you are and who I am, because we know, but our children don't know that. We know you're really not my responsibility. Ultimately, you belong to God just like I do, and we are brothers and sisters in that way. And I want to keep talking to you in that way as adults, but that has to start with the message, not only are you going to we're going to respect your growing up, but more and more like you're saying, we need a culture that says and you will grow up, I am not going to continue to support every problem you have isn't my problem once you're past high school and into your 20s, that's a really hard thing. I talk with a lot of compassionate just talking to some parents the other day, or I said, You love this adult daughter of yours, but you do not respect her. You let her talk to you like that. She didn't do that with anybody else. She demands and expects from you like she's a toddler, and that was a hard thing to say. I'm usually talking to a mom who is such a great mom, and I don't want to not have compassion for that, but I really strongly want to give out the message you must also teach your adult children that you're adults. We respect you and we expect you to take care of you and your own stuff. We want to be helpful, but you're not constantly a child.

Dr Hal Habecker: 14:38

So do you have conversations with your adult children. I mean, even as they raise their family, should you have conversations with them to reinforce that periodically? You know, it's a

Ken Wilgus: 14:50

good point. Yeah, I think you do. It's, you know, like the planned emancipation the book is, is almost like a formula of stepping out through adolescence, but it's really just the. Actions that you do to reinforce the constant communication of I don't think you can say Enough of like, if you want to say to your daughter something you're concerned about, what they're doing financially or with their kids. I think you always start with, listen, even even now, you start with the words, something like, Hey, it's your deal. I mean, I'm not trying to tell you how trying to be your dad or mom or I certainly am not going to tell you I handled this great. But can I just mention and so in the book, it's called advice giving, there's like a little bracketed way of just clarifying before you say the thing to put the right context of this is the kind of the relationship context of me saying this, and I am not coming at you from a know it all perspective, but can I tell you? And that makes it so much easier for adult children to listen to their parents, and especially like a man with his son in saying, Listen, you know, I've not been perfect and all. And if you think I have, well then let me disillusion you. Don't have to give confession to your children, but certainly occasionally, as long as they enough for them to know that. You know, I'm not a perfectly admirable person. I am saved through grace. And from that view, I'm just telling you what I'm fearful for you, what I'm heartbroken for you. But ultimately, it's up to you that can really, kind of lubricate the gears, if you will, lot more than we think. That

Dr Hal Habecker: 16:28

leads us into a let's have a short conversation on being adults with your adult children. You know, we're talking about things, how you encourage them, how you listen to them, and another thing that I'm big on, and I'll just say it the way I want to say it. You can rephrase it, expectations we have for what they do. Oh, yeah. And there is a sense in which they're they belong to God. They can make decisions on themselves. And I don't know that my parents, as I think, back on my life. I don't know what my parents thought about some of the decisions I made, but, you know, they did encourage me as we made all these and there were things that I did that I knew they weren't totally supportive of, but having said that we had a strong adult relationship, I

Ken Wilgus: 17:18

was going to say the fact that you aren't sure what they would say about all that is probably a good sign, because they were biting their tongue to some degree. But as you mentioned them not saying it didn't mean you didn't know. I know what they think, but they probably weren't there barking at you at every point. And I think what that comes down to, especially for Christians, is giving up my expectations for this child. And all of us who've had children know this. You go through it, you start with your oldest that you slowly, or maybe quickly, discovered, I had this vision for that person, but they actually haven't turned out like I thought. I think for Christians, that's going to happen for anybody but for Christians, I think we lean into it. I think about it. I have a whole teaching about what I call the fire and the knife, the parenting tools that Abraham brought the fire and the knife when he answered God's question of who is more important to you, me or your child? And he answered correctly, God is worth more he went to worship than his son, and he also knew that if he he believed Hebrews tells us he thought that if he sacrificed that boy, God would raise him from the dead. And in one sense, he did. It's crazy, 1000s a year later, but the point is that for Christians, all parents have that kind of secret disappointment of this isn't the way I thought it was going to go. For Christians, we can lean into that, always using that as a red flag that reminds us, oh yeah, this is your child, not mine. And and, you know, I always remember this. You know, your oldest always goes through so my son was going to start playing football in junior high. Now, in my family, as you know, we're not tall and we're not super athletic, but my son is kind of average height, and I remember the point, I think, when he was in junior high, we were we live in a small town, and I thought, you know, he can play football in high school, and chicks love high school football. I thought I had this whole vision for him, and this is embarrassing to talk about, but from fifth grade and sixth grade, I would take him to practices and games. I'd put in this how long ago it was a cassette tape of these jams to try to get him up and get excited. He would turn the volume down. He was always this kind of soft hearted kid. He was big enough to play some, but he was never the aggressive guy I felt he should be. And this actually resulted in sitting in a doctor's office of Dr the Peterson friend of mine, who was painfully trying to, in so many words, say, your son is faking a back injury so he won't play football. And I just thought, oh my goodness, I have. I pushed this boy in a direction he didn't want to go. And I it really struck me that, among many other times, when I was disappointed because I had a vision for the kind of person I thought my son could and should be, and for Christians, recognizing that I have to let go of that is recognizing what Abraham did. Do you not think God will give you more than you could have ever imagined? And of course, the end of that story for me is kind of a joke, but my son is our pastor, so it worked out okay. His football career did not exactly blossom, but this was something I never could have imagined, and I just praise God for it, but

Dr Hal Habecker: 20:43

I think that's a powerful lesson. Do we believe God will take our kids further than we would have dreamt in our best dreams for them, and are we willing for him to take them in a different way? Because not just know how our lives are going to unfold? And you look back on and say, Oh, God had this in mind, but yet we want to parent our adult kids and kind of hover in our own mind, feel like

Ken Wilgus: 21:06

it's up to us, yeah, yeah. And it really starts with the hard answer to the question that God has the right to ask. Who is more important to you, me or your child? And I have known parents that have answered that incorrectly, I will turn away from a God that would let my adult son be killed in a drunk driving accident. I can't have any you know, I've seen that, and as a parent, I can have compassion for that. But thank God, as Christians, we can know. No, no, no. God is the more important and worthy thing, because he would never do badly by your own child. Do you think you know better for your child than God does? So it's it's a it's about really knowing God's love and not overvaluing our you know, individual responsibility.

Dr Hal Habecker: 21:55

So let me talk about this in another angle. When things happen that are disappointing to us. Why do we as adults, sometimes, maybe more than we think, feel, what did I do wrong that precipitated this, this decision, let's

Ken Wilgus: 22:11

be honest. Mothers, think, what did I do wrong? I have sat in the office many times with mothers of adult children that that have said, Look, I am here. I just want you to tell me, what did I do wrong? And I may have, but I can't think of a single father that was like, What did I do? It's, you know, we've never had these children in us. It is really hard for parents in general, but mothers not to feel like what my adult child chooses really comes back to me and and those mothers don't want to hear the spirit saying it isn't you, because they really want to hold on to that response. And I get that. I think there's a there's something that almost seems worthy, but it's really not. It's really kind of worshiping at the temple of motherhood in a way that it's important to recognize that you made choices as an adult, that you parents taught you better than that, and you take responsibility for that. I'll say to those moms, I'm like, Well, if your children's bad choices are because of how they were mothered, then your bad mothering is your mother's fault, and it never helps. Never. It's just logic never comforts them. They don't. We don't think about No, it starts with me. I should have overcome my own mothers, and they're almost always better mothers than their mom was, but I should have done better well then have the same respect for your adult kid where you didn't do well. And all of us, and I mean this, all of us did and said stuff we shouldn't have done with our kids, and all of us didn't do some things we should have done. And I guarantee you my children would be nodding that, yeah, no, he didn't do it all correctly, and not even a little bit mine too. We all did, is it good enough? That's a concept that I think is important, and for Christians, that good enough is pretty wide. Can the spirit not make up for my parent absolutely, absolutely say that again, the spirit can make up for my mistakes way better than I could ever imagine. He is that big. It is not for Christians particularly. It's even less about the fragile nature of Did I do it? Right? That's not our belief.

Dr Hal Habecker: 24:30

I don't think I've ever thought about that before. It's about

Ken Wilgus: 24:33

respecting your adult Listen, you're in the same boat. I did, and I know I didn't do everything correctly. My folks didn't do everything correctly. And, you know, my parents are good people, but they didn't do it all correctly. But it would never occur to you and me to go, Well, I'll tell you why I'm not doing well on my job. It's because my mother no Heck no. And you really hope that you don't teach your children that that, hey, your life is my problem. I've seen that. And when you have adult children that begin. To believe you that, yes, my bad choices is your fault. That's a that's a very ill equipped adult.

Dr Hal Habecker: 25:07

Good stuff. Ken, I think you ought to be a resident podcaster with us on dealing with adults.

Ken Wilgus: 25:17

If I get to sit with Hal habecker, I'll do it any day of the week I still get I'm talking to how

Dr Hal Habecker: 25:23

So let's kind of wrap this up. God, we could go on forever, but we're not gonna do an hour long. Okay, yes, okay. You know, our journey is to be with our adult kids and to have adult conversations and spiritually. I mean, this is, this is where I'm a pastor, and we live by the book. In fact, I want to take two angles in this. The verses I always quote are Psalm 7117 and 18. Oh God, you have taught me from a youth, and I still declare your wondrous deeds, even when I'm old and gray. Don't forsake me until I declare your strength to this generation and your power to all who are to come so we as adults growing adults, as our adult kids grow older, we don't back off of living for Jesus in a strong way and encouraging others. And that's, in fact, our whole ministry, our best years, according to Robert Browning and the scriptures are now that's right, as we age, so talk to us about how we can really live strong adult lives spiritually and encourage our adult kids spiritual. How do you do it with your son, who's your pastor? How do you do it with your other kids? And what can we be doing as parents to really excel and encourage our adult kids spiritually? I

Ken Wilgus: 26:38

think there's two main things to think about one is to take inventory of any part of your communication, your influence with your children that is kind of coercive. So if the listeners that have money, for example, this is not a problem for poor parents, but money parents can can be generous with a string attached, and maybe even more than you think of it that way, so that you can. And I think dads have a bad habit of, you know, you're living in my house while you said your house being built, and so you are, you know, it's pushing, and that's not our faith. We don't push using our power. Think of extreme examples. I've had Christian parents who I'm not going to let my gay son stay with us over the holiday if he brings his husband okay? Again, one would say, Are you saying that gay marriage is okay? No. Are you a prince that's going to tell the guards at the gate not to let is that your power? Instead, it's about showing that same truth in humility, that you know your your husband is welcome. You know it breaks our heart. We want him to, you know, being honest, but not using power. And be careful with that, that you don't imply that, because we have been and are still being generous, you kind of owe us. It may surprise parents how much adults think about that with their parents. So I'm not saying that parents are overtly saying it, but be careful about cleaning up what may be implied obligations because of our generosity and whatever, or owing things to us and and that. But secondly, I think the more common factor is to to be, as you mentioned, careful to let your kids know that I am talking to you as an adult, that I do respect your own choice about things, including you may not agree with me on this thing, and I want to talk with you. The easiest way to do that, especially spiritually, is that teenagers and young adults don't really like to be taught by their parents, but they will hear your experience. There's a big difference between saying, you know, the Scripture is the truth. It is always true, versus, you know, yesterday, I was really reminded how the scripture I just sometimes have questions that I think I'm still struggling with. Telling a story about you is is a very good way to advise and to instruct without being this teacher. Person own it. Talk about your own the things the Lord is doing in your life, rather than starting a new lesson with your adult children who may not want to attend your semester of Bible study.

Dr Hal Habecker: 29:24

You know that's just so critically important. Ken, gee, we need to reinforce that again and again and again and again,

Ken Wilgus: 29:32

because it happens more than again where we started. It's a hidden thing. You live in a culture that doesn't share in how do we say this was a child? Now this is an adult, and that tension is often in your relationship more than you know, and so reminding them again and again, I don't think you can

Dr Hal Habecker: 29:51

overdo it. Okay, now I do want to go down one more track before we finish here, and I'll we'll extend this just a tad longer. I. You gave me a book by Carl Truman, the strange new world, how thinkers and activists redefined identity and sparked the sexual revolution. And we'll talk about this in next podcast, but tell us a little bit about why are people different today? What's happened in our culture, as we look back on our kids and our grandkids, and you say, 50 years ago, this never would have been possible. That's right, and the sexual revolution everything, and we gets into all the things in our culture. How did that happen? And why would we be wise as adults to know what's happened, what's

Ken Wilgus: 30:42

important when we think about that, and why I knew you'd like that book is because a lot of parents listening have children who are going down a track that they are greatly concerned about. For example, you know, most young people are not gay or transgender, but most all young people believe very strongly in the respect for anyone that is and simply trying to talk to your adult kid about, hey, you know, gay is, is sinful, or something, you know, kind of overt like that is a little bit like just looking at one sinkhole and not seeing it all the under The ground water that has been flowing for a long time. The thing that Carl Truman does a great job of identifying is, I think he calls it expressive individualism. If you think about it, young people on colleges are not there's not big tables on the quad saying you should try being trans or you. That no one's saying that. What they're saying is you should be authentically you, and you know your authentic self by sort of therapeutically and courageously examining Do you feel comfortable in your body? What are you attracted to sexually? And that's important as to who you are, and for us as Christians, to simply answer, no, you're not supposed to do that doesn't really get at the base issue, and the base issue is much deeper. We Christians don't believe that we establish our own identity. As I've said before. You know, every Sunday morning there's a bonfire of false identities outside the church that Jesus demands. You're not an American Christian, you're not a middle class Christian, you're not a white Christian, you're just Jesus. That's all you are. And so things like, Well, I am also a gay Christian, or I am simply go on the same bonfire with everybody else. The difficulty is that they're now protected by an army of kind of virtue signaling, self righteousness that says that doesn't say, Mom Dad, you should be open to gay people. That's not really the bottom line. The bottom line is, Mom Dad, you should respect everyone's individually chosen identity. And that's the part where I think we make the bigger difference with wow, I totally know what you mean. I can remember when I tried to be, you know, half of wisdom is just getting tired. Most of the people listening to us are just, you know, like, I remember when I was, I thought I was going to be this successful this or be this parent, or be this kind of husband. And, you know, over time, you're like, I just, I just have Jesus, it's really all I got. And he is kind to me, so to share wisdom with our young adults that even if they're not in that kind of alternative culture, they respect that. But what they respect is, shouldn't we each have our own choice of who we are? And that's really where the dividing line is, oh no, sweetheart, I am not my own I try not to criticize myself, not because I want to feel good, but because I am bought. And if Jesus says I need to lose 30 pounds, okay? But if I do, I'm trying not to listen to that. I do not own myself. And then you can talk, do you? Do you? You feel like you own you? Yeah, that's gonna be rough. I know been through it, not in that same characteristic you're talking about, but the self chosen identity thing, yeah, that's That's painful. It's now become practically a religion. Your self experience. This invaded everything feminism. It kind of killed feminism. Instead of a group of women, it became me too. It's just individuals. It killed a very good racial conversation that became black lives matter. You need to know my perception, my experience, no policies, just personal experience. It just kind of guts every movement that's about us and becomes about a bunch of individuals. And the side effect of this, you can see it is crushing isolation. Young people are completely alone, or the people they're with are very short term. I always call I've told some college kids this. I'm like, wait a minute, you're like a sitcom where the. Character in season three as a whole new supporting cast, like, who are your people you know? Not my family, not my best friends, not my spouse. It's just me, and that is, is the worst of all evils is the crushing weight of I've chosen me and I will declare me everywhere I am, that's not something to be mad about. That's something to feel great pity for, because it is, it is horrifyingly alone and cold. How much time you listen? You and I could do this all day, and I'll do it. Ken,

Dr Hal Habecker: 35:34

it's a joy to listen to you, but I want to move. We're going to wrap up this podcast, and I want to move to the next one, but I not only thank you and value your friendship, you know that we've journeyed together for four and a half decades. It's

Ken Wilgus: 35:47

crazy that you would hang with me this long. I love it well, you inspire me

Dr Hal Habecker: 35:52

and help me think and grow every day. And isn't that our mission as we age and become more elders, we don't stop that, Ken, I don't I'm going to do this with you for the rest of my life. But isn't

Ken Wilgus: 36:02

it fun for you to hear from me a big chunk of what you taught me, like, we sharpen each other, and I love it. I know it. I'm like, Hal knows this stuff. He's he shared in different form, the very same thing.

Dr Hal Habecker: 36:16

That's what we're trying to do as a ministry. That's right. Finish you well, ministries, we want to sharpen each others aren't sharpens our iron. These are our best years as elders, yep, before we go to heaven. I mean, we have a limited number of decades or years left, yep, and we need to press on. That's what Paul said in Philippians three. I want to press on so that I may lay hold of that in my aging years for which Christ laid hold of me. Let's press on for the goal. That's right, so that's our mission out there. And I hope this has resonated with you, and thanks for listening to us. Pray for us and encourage us and encourage each other. And let's be about the work God has given us to do for Him. Amen. Amen. Thanks, Ken, God bless. Thanks. Hal, thank you for listening to this finishing well podcast. We hope you were encouraged by today's conversation and living out your God given purpose. Subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcast, or you can find us at finishing well ministries, dot, O, R, G, forward, slash podcast. If you have a question, a comment or a suggestion or an idea, send a note to me. Hal@finishingwellministries.org check out our website and our vision to change the way we think about our aging season of life. Go to finishing well ministries.org, and visit our website. We'll see you next time, and may the Lord bless and encourage you. You.