Episode S4E15: Guest: Ken Wilgus. "Being a Grandparent of Older Grandchildren"

Dr. Hal Habecker and Ken Wilgus discuss the importance of planned emancipation in parenting and grandparenting. They emphasize respecting adult children and grandchildren, avoiding overbearing advice, and fostering independent adulthood. Wilgus highlights the need for churches to involve older teenagers in mentoring and to support families with technology and discipline. He advises grandparents to communicate respectfully and not side with grandchildren against parents. They also stress the importance of understanding and engaging with younger generations' beliefs, rather than imposing one's own views. The conversation underscores the role of the church in guiding multi-generational interactions.

Grandchildren play a huge role in our lives as grandparents. Dr. Wilgus will help us
understand the extent with which we can impact and encourage our grandchildren as they age. These truths can be impactful in the developing multigenerational relationship in the church as well.

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Dr. Wilgus has been a practicing psychologist for over thirty years. He received a Ph.D. from the University of Texas at Austin, an M.A. from Trinity University and a B.A. from Baylor University. He completed his internship at the Michael Reese Medical Center in Chicago, Illinois. Dr. Wilgus served as Director of Child and Adolescent Services at the Minirth-Meier Clinic in Dallas, Texas. He maintains a private practice in Dallas Texas. Although he is no longer accepting new adolescent patients, Dr. Wilgus consults with parents as well as providing marriage and individual, adult therapy.

Transcript

Dr Hal Habecker: 0:03

Steve today on the finishing well podcast,

Ken Wilgus: 0:07

I think you can add to and be an agent of the Spirit in really speaking to your kids, but it starts by biting your tongue a lot and then picking moments that you do, and I mean very few, maybe five or whatever, in lifetime that you set aside and say, I need to tell you something. I'm grieved about it, and I'm so sorry but and then you can lay that in.

Dr Hal Habecker: 0:30

Welcome to the finish it well podcast where we encourage seasoned believers to find meaningful ways to impact their world for the kingdom of God, whether you're 65 and up or not quite there yet, our mission is to prepare and encourage every person to finish well. Our prayer is that this podcast will encourage and strengthen you to glorify Christ as we intentionally engage our aging years. Well, welcome to our finishing wealth podcast. Again. I'm here with Ken Wilgus, a psychologist who has written an excellent book called feeding the mouth that bites you. And I simply want to say, even though this book is written for parenting adolescents, I let me tell you, the lessons in this book are as helpful for us in our elder years as we watch our adult kids and our grandkids as it ever was. So I want to welcome Ken and by the way, I'm Hal habecker, finishing well Ministries is what we do, encouraging seniors to finish well, and not just to finish well, but to live well. I mean, we're in the last lap of our life, and as Robert Browning says, grow old along with me. The best is yet to be I believe that the Bible teaches that right the last years are critically important, years and decades. Most of the Bible was written by older myths and the stories of the scriptures of aging people. But can you you're focused on younger people, but I want to take your book and talk more about grand parenting a little bit, but But start us out, review with us what planned emancipation means. That's the key phrase in your book. That's right, we're rearing our kids. We reared our kids to be independent and adults on their own refresh us. What does that mean? And how might that come to bear more with our grandkids or as our adult kids have their own kids, and we need to keep that in mind. Well, what

Ken Wilgus: 2:42

you're saying in your intro is part of why the second edition is expanded and includes a chapter about your relationship with your adult children, living at home and grandparenting, because the application of planned emancipation is true throughout the life cycle. So the basis of it that we mentioned last time is that it's important for everyone to know that you do live in an unusual culture. The West has lost track of a shared understanding of how we translate children into adulthood. So for example, we've forgotten that childhood is over by about the age of 13, and everyone panics like, oh, doesn't mean the training and your responsibilities are gone. It just means that you begin to respect, to communicate that, hey, we see you as adults, and we talked before about that. It is surprising how late in life, and I'm not kidding some listeners, if you think about this and your parents, you know what I mean, you still have attention. You know, love my mom, but boy, if she brings up one more time about what we serve, it's something you can feel that, not that I don't like my mom, it's just that I think she still, or my dad, they still think of me as a kid, and that's a cultural oddity that you can kind of correct in as you mentioned before, the thing really well. You can do it all the time, like continually communicate. Hey, I want to tell you this, but I'm not telling you this from a position of having done everything right. I don't know everything, but adult to adult. Here's advice, and it's not true for everyone listening, but it's surprising how common that perception of you still think of me as a child interferes with your ability and your real desire to really mentor your adult children. I just want to pour into you. I want to give you advice, and clearing that little really kind of control battle, clearing that up is just hugely helpful in them being able to hear what you're trying to get across.

Dr Hal Habecker: 4:45

So we didn't plan to go this way, but I want to take a different tack right now, you know, because I think one of the great missions of older people is to influence generations coming behind. That's right, but many younger people don't want to hear. Hear what older people have to say. I mean, I think there's this craving in younger people. I'd really love to know more of what they think, because I need what they have, but they don't want to hear it, because most of what they've heard has been, in a sense, a talking down to right if you didn't do this. So this opens up a whole mission in the church that if we would do it better if we would respect younger people and earn their trust. You might say, you know, they would be more willing to hear from us. Speak to that. Well,

Ken Wilgus: 5:30

it's funny. You should say that there are several churches that I work with that the student ministry kind of says openly, hey, when you come here, you that are 13 and older you? We consider you young adults, and we work on older teenagers being a part of mentoring younger teenagers and even children, so that our student ministry isn't just kind of an audience that comes and we entertain them, we start to really let them know the truth. We count on you. This church needs you to to help us with what you know, and you are on your way to being fully part of us. It's kind of a joke. No one's ever taken me up on this, but I'm not kidding. Think of this way. If you go to a large church, you should probably have a corner door going into the sanctuary with a young person with a sign over his or her head that says, I can show you how to silence your phone, because you know your phone is going to go off. You're not going to know where it is, all that stuff. It's a true thing that you know what? I need some high schooler out there that can just remind me it's how to do this. That's, that's, I actually think we should do that, but it's also part of a church that says here we don't have little children all the way up into their 20s. Our student ministry are young people who we count on, and we need their help,

Dr Hal Habecker: 6:55

but we really need each other, and the church should be the place to demonstrate that more than any other place,

Ken Wilgus: 7:03

and it helps parents. I remember there was a church in Austin. It's so great. They have a two year ministry of parents with mentor parents, dealing with teenagers, helping each other through the panicky times. You mustn't try to do this alone. You need church support to help with cell phones like technology is such a an absorbing thing, and it's really hard for isolated families to say, I'm sorry that all of your friends have a phone, but we're not doing that yet. It's much easier if you are a solid part. You can't just be dropping into church. You have to be a solid part of a church community that says none of us do that. Here's what we're doing, and it's not because you're a little kid. It's because it's bad for all of us, and you will with teenagers. The answer is not, no. It's not, yet you will be free to make those choices at some point in the future, but not right now. That's a huge difference. And the support of a church that says you are no longer a child, you know, that's what the synagogue used to say. That's what bar mitzvah was, was the community saying you are no longer an obedient child of your parents. You're a son of the covenant. You don't have Bar Mitzvahs for for girls, transition to adulthood. Happens through puberty. It's forced upon them. Everyone knows that that's not a little girl anymore, and it's really hard boys. On the other hand, you have to have kind of a way of saying, and I think it's fine to do it with both. But historically, the reason we've had a ceremonial church wide, if you will, way of saying these are the adults here can be very powerful to help individual families communicate this. Hey, we see you as an adult. You're not a child that some of the our listeners are struggling even with their adult children who still have that feeling. So

Dr Hal Habecker: 8:59

let's talk about the family. So we've reared our kids to be independent. What's the phrase

Ken Wilgus: 9:06

to be to be emancipated, autonomous? So we're

Dr Hal Habecker: 9:10

reinforcing them. We want to reinforce them to do that with their kids, right? Whether or not we've done it well or not, we understand it now more as we age. So we're relating to them, and we're relating to our grandkids. So number one, how do we just continue to encourage our kid, our adult kids, to keep that their focus as they raise their kids our grandkids? Well, the first

Ken Wilgus: 9:36

step sort of automatically happens if you've been careful in respecting your adult children, and they do believe that, hey, when my mom, when my dad, talked to me, they're not talking down to me. They really are giving me their best feedback as a fellow adult, then it makes it much easier for you to talk to your children about their children.

Dr Hal Habecker: 9:56

Okay, I want to cut in here, and let's talk about a very practical. Thing, which I think all of us as older adults wrestle with our phones control our lives. Oh, yeah, so our adult kids are heavily invested in technology, right? And we as their parents say, why are they so? I mean, I don't like it. I don't like I've watched

Ken Wilgus: 10:19

my kids look at their phone when my grandkids are running around and and I think, what do you do? Of course, I don't think about the times I'm on my phone, yes, because I'm distracted at that moment, but yeah, I've absolutely seen that. But

Dr Hal Habecker: 10:33

yet I my kids are adults. They make their own decisions, and even though I may not think I'm on my phone as much as I think they

Unknown: 10:42

are. Exactly

Dr Hal Habecker: 10:44

talk about communicating with our adult kids on those How do you accept your adult kids when they have a different view of technology and they use it differently than I do? Well, you

Ken Wilgus: 10:55

start by biting your tongue. You shouldn't feel free to every time you know. If you're constantly going, Hey, you're on your phone again, whatever, you're not respecting your adult child. It is not always your business to comment and to tell them, so you bite your tongue, not constantly, but close like you don't need to say everything you see not happening. Listen, technology is only one of them. Here's the most common one. Most adults here are going to watch their adult children gentle parent their kids. That's the it's now the sort of mode of the day that I will not be disciplining. I'm going to be more of a consultant, whatever level your kid has. All of us are watching a generation that you think, wow, that's not the best way to parent my grandchildren. Step one is, bite your tongue. It is not your child. It is your child's child, and showing the respect for your own child is step one so that you can influence them. It's not that you give up on influence. It's if you want to be influential, you should not feel free to speak up all the time you think there's something wrong. I can't tell you the myriads of adults I know that will not listen to their parents, because when they come over, it's always you're not doing this. You're not doing that. It's not getting anywhere. If anything, maybe the older parent thinks I've checked boxes that, you know, it's not my fault, but you're not helping your children or your grandchildren, and

Dr Hal Habecker: 12:32

that's true in every area. I mean, how they attend church, what they do with their kids spiritually, what they do in discipline, what they do with technology, what they do with eating. You know, we have to free ourselves from having to comment on everything our kids well, free yourself

Ken Wilgus: 12:46

is the best word. You're right. It is also recognizing that God is not counting on you to input everything about these adult children. He's right there. As I always tell parents, Jesus lives with your kids. You know? He's there now you're not. He's got this. Does he want you to play a part in it? Yeah, maybe, but it's not your problem. And that's actually hard for caring parents to really feel that, because I I feel that compassion, but that's not the same thing as Yeah, but God is is not counting on you to be the input all the time.

Dr Hal Habecker: 13:20

We all recognize and love the fact that God doesn't put us individually as their adult parents on a performance Well,

Ken Wilgus: 13:27

we hope we would enjoy that a lot of us are so busy we don't want to know that. And you should take the freedom of that God is a better parent than you are. You really think you know better for your kid than God does, and that God's actually going to say to you at the end of all things, hey, I was counting on you. And now look, it's all messed up. That is not our that's a very tiny God. So

Dr Hal Habecker: 13:49

we have that kind of adult relationship with our kids biting your tongue, first step, yeah, say Jim Burns book, you know, keep your welcome mat out, but your mouth. I love that

Ken Wilgus: 13:59

book. That's a very good it's a very good point. Yes. Now I should hasten to add, if my adult children hear this, I'm pretty sure they would say, Yeah, Dad doesn't do that all the time. So you know, it's hard. It is tough. It is but my kids have no idea how much I could have said that I didn't. So it's not about being perfect, but it is maintaining your openness in communication by respecting them. Then secondly, I do think there are times you choose carefully. Ben I have done this is to take your kid. It's not good to talk to your in law kid, but you is a proper moment to say, Can Can we go out for coffee? I want to talk to you about something, and in full respect, you know, make sure they know that this is not my responsibility, and I could be wrong here, but I want you to know I am worried about how whatever this thing is is going the technology. I'm worried about how your kids are behaving, and it. Again, you want to be in my book, I have a whole section on advice giving. I call it kind of slicing off the ends of a big pill. You start by owning it. Listen, I'm just telling you about what worries me. I've told my kids a bunch, you know, I'm a shrink, so maybe, maybe I'm making a big deal out of nothing. Yeah, but I want to tell you this thing, and then I say the thing, and then I finish with. But listen, I know that you probably don't even want to hear that. It's your kid. It's not mine. I'm proud of you anyway, but I wanted you to know that that's actually effective. It is more effective than, look, I've been not saying anything for a while, but it's about time, if you come in hard and heavy because you are, frankly, because you're afraid, that's usually what that is that comes from not trusting that God is here. If you can go in small, I think you can add to and be an agent of the Spirit in really speaking to your kids. But it starts by biting your tongue a lot and then picking moments that you do, and I mean very few, maybe five or whatever in lifetime that you set aside and say, I need to tell you something. I'm I'm grieved about it, and I'm so sorry but and then you can lay that in. So

Dr Hal Habecker: 16:10

talk to me about and us, our listeners, you have two kids that don't live where you are, yeah, and God lets me

Unknown: 16:18

have one child in the state at the same time. It's hard

Dr Hal Habecker: 16:21

to do all this if there's a lot of distance that's between you, physically, that's right miles. So you've won in New York and the other in Alabama, and you

Ken Wilgus: 16:29

have to, and you have to weigh that in. I think I had more, you know, my kids that used to live in Texas, they moved away. I think that was more common for me to have input then, because, you know, for a lot of grandparents, we're a bigger part of our grandchildren's lives than my parents were. My parents were great, but we're Boomer kids, and so they would visit. It was great. We visited my grandparents. But, you know, my wife takes care of our grandchildren one day a week. Always has. Sometimes two were more a part of their life, and that is a good thing, but it also creates potential difficulty, like I say, of what if you're watching something that you just know this isn't good? Well, what does God really want you to do with that? What is your role in that? And how do you kind of process that?

Dr Hal Habecker: 17:19

So how do you live as a grandparent with this idea of planned emancipation with your grandkids? We've talked about our own adult kids, right? But we want to do that now. I mean, we may be tempted to want to help our adult parents, you know, more than we should, or whatever, but we need to be aware of that. So what are healthy things that we ought to be doing with our grandkids? And it's easier just to hang out with them when they're little and play on the floor, but as they're in adolescent years. I mean, we have one who's 17 now fixing think about going to college and everything like that. So how do you do that with your adult grandkids, or becoming adult grandkids, most

Ken Wilgus: 18:02

grandparents don't really have a problem knowing how to treat their little kid grandchildren, yeah, you know. And little kid, you know, usually just love their grandparents. They can, you know, they'll cuddle up with them and all that stuff. So I rarely have to advise grandparents about that. But even at that point, you do want to be careful that you are demonstrating to these little kids that we respect your parents. So if they complain to you, even at that age, about your kid, about their parents, don't join into that, because that ultimately will be an issue when these kids become teenagers. So where grandparents do sometimes stumble is when their grandchild becomes an adolescent. Sometimes they don't, and I want to make sure that's fine. I've known many teenagers, 15, surly, my parents can't tell me anything. Oh, Grandma's here. Can we make cookies like if they'll let you cuddle them and all that. Fine. I think that's great. But sometimes they can be a little more distance, not quite sure how to handle them. They think I'm sort of corny, all that stuff. This is when granddads really go bad on the dad jokes that I don't know why, but when we're not liked, we just start being annoying. I don't know what that is, but it's important then to think about as grandparents. You can treat them more as young adults with respect, so you know you can be less cuddly and overly unintentionally patronizing and be more respectful. You can establish your own communication with them, like texting them, never something that you would not want their parents to see you texting, but so that you have your own relationship with them, and definitely at that point, do not side with them against your own children, because they're now young adults, and they will know what that means in the future, that you don't respect me either. You didn't even respect my parents, so that you want to be aware of their adultness and. Respond to that as grandparents, and in those cases, there are more times I've seen now than I ever used to see where children that had left the faith have children, your grandchildren, that want to hear about the faith from you, and especially by adolescents you. We mentioned this before. They don't like to be taught, but they do want to hear your life, your stories, so telling them about what God is doing in your life, being that kind of religious grandparent that talks about yourself has created or facilitated the salvation of grandchildren more than it used to be. So it's a great opportunity, but you want to be cautious that it's not done by disrespecting their parents, and it's also not done by being this secret teacher that's always smuggling books in and telling them, God wants you to this and that, but it's the Holy older person that seems to be at peace and has this thing that I don't know I want, what that is, and my grandmom keeps telling me about all that Jesus has done for her and does for her. There is power in that, in your lives, with your grandchildren, and I've seen it. It's it's tricky. It means a lot of tongue biting, but it also means some great opportunities for them to not just learn from you, but they see it, and they want to see it. I

Dr Hal Habecker: 21:32

think that's what the Spirit wants in our lives. He wants us to find ways to connect, right, not to control, but to share our lives. And I think telling your story or telling excerpts of it, I have a friend who's in a Bible study that I lead, and he writes stories to his kids, and his kids want to read them. Well, they actually do. They read them as bedtime stories, yeah, because they're fun stories to learn about their grandparents. Yeah,

Ken Wilgus: 22:04

that's, I think that's a great but it's also being aware. Remember Henry Blackaby, that used to teach about look for the ministry God is doing, and the part you join in? Well, I think that's applicable in your own family. Where is the Spirit working in your grandchildren's lives, the ones you're really concerned about and join in. Don't fear and feel like you have to take the project on, fold yourself into what the Spirit is doing.

Dr Hal Habecker: 22:29

What is it in us that wants to control other people? That would be sin? I

Ken Wilgus: 22:33

think it would be pride. And like I say, it's just, I now know it, and I've gotten better at little better at chuckling when I see me do it, because I kind of can't not do it. It's just the spirit has to help me to avoid I just think I know stuff I didn't know things that everyone else needs to know. And it's just, it's, it's a funny, except that it's just part

Dr Hal Habecker: 22:58

of why I'm true. And it's sad. Yes, it is, we need to help each other. It's true, vigorously, yeah, yeah. As our sharp it's hard don't let each other do that kind of thing.

Ken Wilgus: 23:08

Well, you and I've talked about that. We you and I have different you've had more influence with your kids in some points, in ways that weren't the same way I would have done it, and we talked about it, you and I. So yeah, it helps to to to allow someone to give us feedback about, how do you see this? And be honest with me about, Am I making this all about me? Because, not because I'm offended that you would tell me that it's just a joke. Of Yeah, I'm probably doing that again or not. You know,

Dr Hal Habecker: 23:36

I'm a pastor. I've always been a pastor, and I think of the church, you have all these generations in the church, and just as you have at least three with you, your adult kids and your grandkids, and then four, or if your parents are still alive, you got four or five right there. These conversations are all happening multi generationally with deep respect, and if they happened in the church where these generations leaned into each other in an intentional way, right, to learn, to listen, to encourage, not to tell, not to be overly you know,

Ken Wilgus: 24:12

that's a chord over barrier to break. That's those strands together. Yeah, you're exactly right, yeah.

Dr Hal Habecker: 24:18

So we've talked a little bit about the cultural movement and more. I think really, in my experience, there are more, let's say, prodigals, adult children and even more grandchildren who are choosing different choices on all kinds of things. But you know, in terms of technology, in terms of sexual things, in terms of jettison their faith, leaving their faith. I mean, right, let's talk about how do we enter in to our adult kids, and particularly more so our grandkids, when choices are made, that in a sense, we would say to ourselves, I hate that they're making those choices. Well. Think

Ken Wilgus: 25:00

the first step we've kind of touched on, don't panic. This is not a crisis that you must be the person to make it change. Be careful of that kind of thinking. But instead, be on your knees a lot, a lot. I can remember that you know my kids, you know my kids. They're good kids. But the very rare occasion, like when one of my daughters was dating that boy. And I can remember it was so scary that Sally and I would be on our knees bedside, giving this and asking God to take over. And I can remember the experience of peace that that gave me from the edge of the bed to the door of the bedroom, and then it would all come back on me. It was such a short lived lack of faith, I discovered, on my own part, that it just felt like I need to mainly talk and think about, what am I going to do? No, no, no, there's much to be done on your knees. Then from that point, there is some things to do. And I think we've talked before, it's first recognizing what, what is your, your children's belief, not what they don't believe, but what is their belief. And kind of having enough knowledge of that to respect it for the the lie that it is. And the most common one we've talked about is is a belief in self determination, that everyone needs to be free to be their genuine self, and they probably most people think that kind of thinking makes Christianity essentially the clan and like we're all just excluders, hater all these generalized terms that all come from the belief really, practically religious belief that there's a North Star inside each of us and a true individual self, and you need to honor that and boost that and all that. So I think it's important to kind of not constantly point out that's not right, that's not right, and certainly that's not biblical. That's not if to a young people that don't you know they think the Bible was written by the patriarchy or whatever. So you want to have respect that I know you don't see it this way. I know your mom and dad see this differently and and I get that, but I just want to tell you how this has changed me, so that it's a it's a truth telling, but with humility that makes sure that you're not going to fall into the trap of of either I know better and I'm trying to tell you, or I don't respect your own parents, it's that as adult to adult as individuals. I'm telling you, this is what's happened for me, and we know that it didn't count on me to say it, right? Jesus says, I chose you. You didn't choose me. We ask the Lord of salvation to save my grandchild, and he will honor that. Do you

Dr Hal Habecker: 27:49

ask the prodigal? And I'll just use that term for people in general who would disassociate themselves or reject parental or grandparent values. Or do you ask them to express their individualism, you know, what? What are you feeling when you make these decisions? Or is it better not to do that? I

Ken Wilgus: 28:10

think it's, you know. I think that's very useful, but tricky territory. If you start the real questioning of, tell me why you don't want to go to church anymore. What is your belief? There's two problems with that. One is that, if you mean, tell me a few things about what you believe so I can jump in and refute it, then that's a trap, and you really don't want to do this. So if you want to enter into that, you need to, number one, plan on I'm not going to finish this with my answer. You don't need to rebut everything that your children, adult children, tell you, so if you really want to listen, I think that's helpful. But number two, for a lot of especially what's now Gen Z 20s, ish, it's really hard for them because, no offense, but they really have not thought this through. It's a very emotional I just feel real strongly about this thing. And many young people get just real emotional, and they because they can't really articulate it. And sometimes you'll find that genuine. Tell me what your objection is, what your belief is. You know, we don't like you living with your girlfriend, but that's not our call. What is your belief about that they may get pretty defensive simply because they're hearing their own words. You know, they're just again, that sounds critical, but they're not great thinkers of what am I doing here? But if you can get there, it's a valuable thing, so that, if you can summarize, so you're saying that for you, you can't imagine that God would treat people this way, and you don't want to be a part of that. I see, if you can finish with that, you've you've accomplished something. It's really wise. It would be hard. It's hard, don't you finish with, well, you know, in in Proverbs, don't do that. Not in that conversation,

Dr Hal Habecker: 30:01

you know, just reminds us of these great spiritual truths. They're biblical. God listens to us. He doesn't hammer us.

Ken Wilgus: 30:08

How many times have you thought I've thought I want God to just make me stay on my knees, push me, make me and he doesn't. He doesn't. He defers to me always. Jesus spent his ministry going, if you want to say, my disciple, that's if

Dr Hal Habecker: 30:22

you want to follow me, deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Me. And

Ken Wilgus: 30:28

do you say that I am like he encourages, draws us. It's it's really lovely, but it's hard. It's hard because I'd rather him. I think I'd rather him just hammering me with it, but,

Dr Hal Habecker: 30:41

but I want to go back to Carl Truman's book we mentioned in the first podcast. You know, we as we as adulting. I mean, we need to understand the world in which we live in, right? That's right, and the church needs to help us. I mean, I, I just think, you know, one of the things about finishing well Ministries is, I believe the church needs a curriculum to help aging people think, well, about what God wants them to do, but how he wants them to think not only about themselves, but the world coming behind them. Yeah. So if we don't understand where the world in which our adult kids are living and rearing their kids, right, you know, we're at a handicap.

Ken Wilgus: 31:19

That means thinking about the error of how they're thinking in a way that they would agree. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. If you simply say, Well, you know, you think that people should just do whatever they want to do, and your kid isn't going to go, yeah, that's what I think. That's not a fair summary. So even in error or even heresy. There's value in being able to say so you still have a problem with God allowing bad things for good people, right? Is that? Yeah, that's what I thought. That's important. You can't refute a it's easy thing. Easiest thing in the world is to set up a paper opponent and then punch holes in it, but to really listen to what is attractive about that and understand that frankly, and again, I think for this generation, it can be helpful, because they very often haven't thought it through for themselves. They're being taught a whole philosophy in little snippets. I watched half of a YouTube yesterday, and now I think that your true gender identity is developed in the second trimester of pregnancy. What? What do you even you know why I didn't finish the video, but that's what I believe now. That's and again, I wouldn't go around telling your adult kid you're just, you know, listening to the internet too much, but, but it's important to know that, that there's value in showing enough respect for your children and grandchildren to, as you say, to genuinely say, I want you to tell me and be honest with me. What is it that's so objectionable you don't like our church that you grew up in? Am I right? Is it because of this and this? And if you can show them that you get that, that's huge. You

Dr Hal Habecker: 33:02

can really identify with them. Yes, you know, often point out Jesus spent 30 years listening to people before he ever opens his mouth to teach. Yeah,

Ken Wilgus: 33:12

that's really hard to imagine. You know, we

Dr Hal Habecker: 33:15

want to give the answer before we understand what the questions are, yeah, yeah. Well, I think it's important for us, as we age to continue to learn. I mean, the world's changing so fast, so much, and we can help each other as older adults understand more and more. You know, I think of it. I think it's second Peter 318, 15, sanctify the Lord in your hearts that you may be ready to give an answer. I mean, this is really an internal process you're going through, spiritually being taught by God so that you can engage other people and answer with the right tone, the right answers, because you understand who God is to you, and you understand how God wants to work in their lives, and you defer to him.

Ken Wilgus: 34:01

You know, I think the reread Paul on the Apostle Paul on Mars Hill, he does such a careful job of telling them, Look, this is what you believe. You honor all the gods. And I want to talk about the God, the to the unknown God. He went straight into how they see things, and that was how he, you know, presented the gospel, starting with, here's what you believe. Because all people have that basic experience of God. Find where that is in your young people. But like you're saying, so Well, you have to listen. And I got to be honest, as I you and I are older now, part of that means to try to not be so enamored with I'm stunned by how often I talk about how things have changed, this, this, this road didn't used to be this busy. And I just complain about, you know, as if the 1970s were great. I don't think they were great. Ask any, any American of color in the 1970s I don't think they thought it was so great. It's always been a challenge and difficult. There's no reason to just look at the way things are and complain. It's a time to really listen, try to grasp what that belief is. And you'll always, you can always find where, you know, I wouldn't think, say it the way you do. But, and I know you mean you want to kind of own your own destiny, I get that I have the same sinful desire as myself. And then if the Lord allows, there's an opportunity for you to share, from your view, here's the way out and why.

Dr Hal Habecker: 35:37

So I want to wrap this up and you can comment on this. I'd love to hear your comment. You know, part of the challenge of old, older age and growing older, is change. Yeah. And really, world does change. We change. Yeah, we're not the same person we were. I mean, we may think we are in some ways, but our bodies are changing. Our world's changing our and hopefully we're growing. I mean, I'm convinced that God has changed there to help us grow. Yeah, and ultimately, in eternity, we're going to be changed in the twinkling of an eye, but until that time comes, we're changing in this world as well, following Jesus, growing, helping others around us. And these are great days, as a friend of mine used to say, because they give us the privilege and joy of growing and seeing our kids grow, our grandkids grow, our great grandkids. And God is using all of this in his mix for us to develop, and

Ken Wilgus: 36:32

fear is what keeps us from seeing that none of these changes, good and bad are a surprise to our God. He has a purpose in all of this. It's when I get fearful that I don't want to listen, I don't want to grow because I think it's all chaos and and somehow out of God's control, he knows what's going on and what we're doing. He can explain Carl Truman's book. Expressive individual, the spirit can express it extremely well. He's not unfamiliar with it. It is part of the world that we're called and allowed to speak into it. It's such a privilege. It really

Dr Hal Habecker: 37:11

is. Can I value I value your friendship in my life? I value your friendship with our audience here today. And if you'd like to engage Ken Moore, I can tell you how to get a hold of him, or maybe we can have him back in another podcast. If there's other things you'd like to have him speak to and address, jot me a note. Hal at finishing well, ministries.org, and we'll, we'll keep going this road together, because we're all parents, we're all grandparents, we're all influencing generations, even if we're single or never been married, or whatever it is, God has a role for us here in our life, and that's what we're about in finishing all ministries, grasping what God has for us at this season in our lives and living it to the hill. You might say, Thanks Ken,

Unknown: 37:56

your joy. Thank you. Thanks so much,

Dr Hal Habecker: 37:59

God bless. Let's keep pursuing Jesus together and encouraging each other to excel in following him. I hope you're blessed and have a great day. Thank you for listening to this finish and well podcast. We hope you were encouraged by today's conversation and living out your God given purpose. Subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcast, or you can find us at finishing well. Ministries dot O R G, forward slash podcast. If you have a question, a comment or a suggestion or an idea, send a note to me. How finishing well. Ministries, dot O R G, check out our website and our vision to change the way we think about our aging season of life. Go to finish you well ministries.org, and visit our website. We'll see you next time, and may the Lord bless and encourage you. You